Talk:Book of Isaiah

Maid or Maiden?

I believe that the Septuagint (Greek translation) of 'Isaiah' says that the Messiah will be born of a virgin, but the Tanakh (Hebrew version) says that the Messiah will be born of a young woman. I think that there should be more of a discussion on this, as it is of great relevance to both Judaism and Christianity. One issue that might be of importance is whether or not we have surviving copies of the Tanakh from before the Septuagint was written that say that the Messiah will be born of a young woman, indicating that the Septuagint did indeed mistranslate the Hebrew into Greek (it is also possible that the Septuagint faithfully translated the Hebrew of the ORIGINAL Tanakh into Greek, but that later Tanakh versions changed the wording, perhaps to discredit Christianity). User: Draxacoffilus —Preceding undated comment added 09:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

First remark: read WP:OR carefully. Second remark: see Isaiah Scroll. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:52, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

User: Draxacoffilus - we have articles on Isaiah 7:14, almah, and Virgin birth of Jesus, which you might find useful if you want to know more on this topic. Please don't rely on Wiki articles though, use them as summaries and use the article bibliographies. As for putting more on the "virgin" prophecy in this article, it would be a severe case of undue weight.PiCo (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

(P.s. - the Hebrew Tanakh word "almah" shouldn't be translated as "young woman" but as a young girl who has reached childbearing age but has not yet given birth to her first child. There's a subtle difference.)PiCo (talk) 23:16, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Yup, a female teenager younger than 13 years. That's what almah means. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Monotheism

Could someone point me to a scholarly work which discusses the apparent implication of monotheism in Isaiah 44:6? I ask because the word used in the KJV was 'beside', not 'besides', and in the context of the preceding verses, it seems much more to me that the writer was quoting God to be saying "I did these thing alone, no other god stood beside me while I did them". Also, I assume this has been well-debated by persons more-educated than myself...

Given that this seems like a potentially controversial interpretation, I think the line "Isaiah 44:6 contains the first clear statement of monotheism" very much needs a reference to such a learned debate or scholarly work, if one can be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtHLarson (talk • contribs) 04:46, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

As for a scholarly work, see e.g. The Origins of Biblical Monotheism by Mark Smith, page 180. I wouldn't put to much weight on the specific English word in one single (very dated) translation, especially since the surrounding chapters of Isaiah contain many similar statements of monotheism. If you look at Hebrew lexicons, the word translated in the KJV with 'beside' (בלעדי bil`adey) has the general meaning of "except for, apart from". All the modern translations I looked at translated it with 'besides', 'apart from' or 'but' in Isaiah 44:6. - Lindert (talk) 10:02, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I wonder if it would be better to use one of the more-modern translations and cite it, or to keep the existing KJV quote with a reference to Smith's book? — Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtHLarson (talk • contribs) 17:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

The suggestion that "Isaiah 44:6 contains the first clear statement of monotheism" relies on an enlightenment conception of monotheism alien to the text of Isaiah. If monotheism is understood in a more historically appropriate way, Isaiah 44:6, and indeed Isaiah 40-55 as a whole, is better understood as in broad continuity with earlier Jewish texts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.253.111 (talk) 15:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Chuck Missler

Chuck Missler wasn't:

1. a Bible scholar (had no degree therein, was an amateur);
2. an academic (e.g. professor).

Why would we regard him as an authority upon the Bible? Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

First clear statement of monotheism?

A very cursory search turns up"

"When the second Isaiah continually emphasizes the uniqueness of Yahweh: "I am the First and I am the Last; beside me there is no God" (Isa 44:6; cf. 43:10; 45:5, also Deut 4:35; etc.), although one can find a monotheism expressed in such words, it should be remembered that the message of the prophet of the Exile is not aiming for a theoretical insight but for trust in that God who "alone" is creator and Savior (Isa 44:24) and is therefore able to help (43:11; 45:21; etc.). In various spheres of literature at the time of the Exile can be found monotheistic statements as well as ones that sound that way (Gen 1:1 P; Deut 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam 7:22; 2 Kgs 5:15; Second Isaiah; etc.)."[1] Old Testament Introduction by de:Werner H. Schmidt. Hopefully others can find more. Doug Weller talk 15:22, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I'll bow to your judgment Doug Weller - I was concerned at the removal of sourced content based on what appeared to be an editor's opinion rather than reference to a source; if you're satisfied that the content is dubious, I'm happy for it to stay out - thanks for checking, and apologies to the IP editor. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Dated

This person: http://worldcat.org/identities/lccn-no92023303/ wrote dated books. Why? Because he died in 1958, and we should generally stick to quoting mainstream Bible scholarship books no more than 20 years old. Exceptions could be made for books which are still considered the best works on the topic by the standards of the year 2021, e.g. Raymond Brown's Birth of the Messiah. Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:07, 25 February 2021 (UTC)